I was pleased to do a recent extended interview with Doug Campbell, I always enjoy a dialog with Doug as he brings in a great deal of focus and digs deeply into areas that are not routinely discussed in conversations about the JFK assassination. If you are interested, the program it is archived and available at:
I’ll be happy to respond to comments and thoughts here as well as on Doug’s own Dallas Action Facebook page. https://www.spreaker.com/user/7338953/185-july-22-2021-logic-clear-reasoning-z
Larry Hancock 
Great interview with excellent questioning and discussion. Longtime follower and reader of your works.
Especially enjoyed your thoughts on Ruby and what he did for Big Event. Assuming he was then blackmailed/forced into killing LHO, what are your opinions on how he was manipulated or promised to get light sentence? How could he possibly expect to come out of it? Maybe he thought there was a chance of being seen as a hero or maybe serve 5 yrs and be released? 20/20 hindsight of course.
Tippit wasn’t talked about and I haven’t started Tipping Point yet, but what are some of your thoughts abt his role?
Many thanks Larry!!
Thanks Joe and I’m certainly glad you enjoyed it, seemed to me to be one of the better discussions I’ve been in over the years.
As to Ruby, certainly he was manipulated but I think it was a serial thing, he was brought in for some minor tasks in something he had no idea would lead to a brutal murder, if he had known that he would certainly never have invited the IRS informant down to watch the fireworks with him. Ruby was many things but not stupid in matters of self incrimination.
The telephone calls and his changing behavior over the next 48 hours indicate he was made to realize how deeply he had become mired in the murder and that if the conspiracy unraveled with Oswald in custody he would become a serious liability and he knew exactly what that meant. And the longer Oswald was questioned and the more he might have talked elevated that risk.
I don’t think it was a matter of sentencing consequences, it was more a matter of survival and of course the impact on his family would have been a consideration for him, especially on his sister who he was close to – bottom line, he might have reassured himself that nobody would get the death penalty or even life in prison for killing the many who murdered the president. And of course that thinking might well have been proved right and was scheduled on an appeals court appearance at the time of his death. A plea of diminished capacity, a arguably poor defense by his lawyer, lots of options.
On Tippit, I do discuss his role and beyond that the possible use of other police officers in peripheral roles, facilitated by Ruby, in Tipping Point. Those who were involved had minimal knowledge, even less than Ruby I suspect. Tippit’s actions suggest to me that he did have an advance role and it involved Oswald. Otherwise his appearance at the service station makes no sense. Whatever his role was though, things did not play out as planned – most likely because Oswald had was not supposed to be “at large” and certainly not taken into custody alive. And Tippit was not supposed to be killed. One of the few things that Martino did comment on was that the combination of those two things basically aborted the second part of the plot.
Enjoyed the interview with Doug Campbell, although I could not listen to all of it – got interrupted. Very interesting stuff. I’m intrigued by the Red Bird information, and the probable identity of the Cuban pilot’s American associate as Manny Chavez, a retired Lt. Col. in the Air Force. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but there is a video interview of him as an old man where he talks about his career. He said that he served mostly in intelligence and military attache roles over the years, particularly Latin America. He initially trained as a pilot in WWII. He said he was a military attache in Guatemala, and was there for the 1954 over throw of Jacobo Arbenz. Interesting, as I know you are aware, of how the same cast of potential suspects seem to be in each other’s orbit over the 1960’s, and that the core of CIA people all go back to Guatemala in 1954.
Hi James, yes we have seen the Chavez interview and some written interviews he did as well, we were able to gather considerable detail about his career and his very interesting assignment to AMWORLD – both for logistics and to profile Artime’s level of security in the project (hint – none found). We put a good bit of that into the Wheaton Lead research paper on MFF.
Not only was he in Guatemala, he was an attache with Morales in Brazil and then later with Morales again in Miami for the Cuba Project and then…as you say there certainly is a cadre that stayed together in related projects for a number of years.
Of course getting the aircraft for AMWORLD would have been very much a sanctioned assignment for Chavez and the Cuban – the real key is the identify of the Cuban and more importantly of his “friends” who had been “embarrassed and hurt” over the Bay of Pigs disaster. Working on that now, of course proving it exactly at this distance in time would be impossible but I think we can come up with some pretty solid speculation.
A small point, but I’ve noticed that in some of the stuff I’ve read over the years people who are supposedly referring the David Morales call him the New Mexican Indian. Morales was from Arizona. But, Chavez, who was in the same places as Morales frequently over the years, was from New Mexico. Think people might have gotten the two mixed at some point?
In re the Cuban pilot with Chavez at Redbird, I know who you’re talking about. What leads you to believe that he’s the one January was doing business with the week and day of the assassination?
Generally I’ve seen reference to Morales as the “Big Indian” although I do recall some reference to New Mexico….I suspect it was just geographic confusion though.
I went to college in New Mexico and subscribed to the state magazine for many years…it had a regular column titled “One of our Fifty is missing” because so many people thought New Mexico was not a state but was Mexico. It seems lots of people don’t have a very good grasp of what is what in the U.S., certainly not back then…not sure that it has improved though.
It also seems that Manny worked more in staff positions and not directly in operations, certainly not at JMWAVE. He and Morales were together at the same place early in the Cuba Project but then Morales moved into WAVE operations and they were located separately.
Chavez appears to have continued as a staff person, not paramilitary nor operations – which is why he got assigned to do logistics for AMWORLD….we also discuss a couple of other staff personnel who were assigned to the project. I don’t think we really have had the sort of detailed view of how JMWAVE was compartmentalized between the SAS/Staff positions vs. the station paramilitary and intelligence operations up to this point.
Now that we are able to read all the stations files we can do that to a large extent and it provides a lot more guidance on who would have been in a position to actually be working with the people who would be able and willing to go to Dallas.
Larry, I enjoyed the interview with Mr. Campbell. Very interesting stuff. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I also finished reading Tipping Point and I have to say that you’ve made a compelling case for the key individuals coming together to make the plot come to fruition, especially those secretive meetings between Harvey, Roselli and either Morales or Moore. The timing of those meetings intertwined with JFK’s growing interest in pursuing Castro’s overtures of reconciliation cannot be coincidental. Plus the corroborating evidence in terms of internal memos, statements/admissions made by individuals involved, either directly or peripherally to the assassination are convincing and further reinforce your theory. I enjoyed the book immensely. That being said, I do have a few questions for you.
1)Is it realistic to believe that Dulles was not consulted for the plot? He was revered by these participants and would they have proceeded with such an action without his blessing or knowledge?
2)You mention the names of several Dallas police officers who may have been involved, if at least peripherally, in Tipping Point. But no mention of Roscoe White, who is mentioned in several other JFK research books. Have you ever looked at him at as a participant?
3)Roy Hargraves was an Interpen member who is considered by most to have been present and a participant in Dealey Plaza. I’m curious if you have read Marita Lorenz’s testimony given during Howard Hunt’s trial that’s found in Plausible Denial. She mentions the names of some of the participants, including several Interpen members, who traveled to Dallas to participate in the assassination. What’s your opinion of the names that she mentioned.
All great questions, deserving more space than I can really give to them here but I’ll try…
1. Dulles may have been revered by the old school headquarters cadre and I have no doubt he influence Helms, and was backing Helms in his attempts to obstruct and interfere with the new Castro initiative. But in one grave sense Dulles had essentially deserted the Cuba Project and refused to enter into it even at the last, when he was in DC and could have inserted himself with Bissell and Cabell and forced the issue of air support with JFK. He did not and left everyone out in the cold. The field paramiliary officers may have blamed JFK but they had been given no sign Dulles had tried to champion their cause, even Bissell did not pitch that. Besides, the field paramiliary offices I write about acted as they felt necessary, Lynch and Robertson at the Bay of Pigs – essentially taking field command when they were not even supposed to be there, Robertson launching an air strike on a foreign ship in international waters totally at his own initiative in Guatemala, etc. And the Cuban’s I write about were independent actors as well, the DRE military guys went after Castro on their own boat mission against Havana, they were trying to organize their own bombing missions in 1963 – these are people who don’t need endorsements.
2. I followed the Roscoe White story from the first newspaper reports and have been engaged for years with researchers who put him deeply into the action. More deeply than I can personally substantiate. On the other hand I tend to believe Geneva’s account of being surprised by seeing him talk with Ruby and I do tend to believe he may have had a role – possibly the uniformed officer doing overwatch behind the fence. In fact I suspect some of the elements of his story (like the cables and the diary) may have been fed in to elevate his role and make it less credible. Personally I can see him as another Dallas cop brought into a minor role in something that neither he nor Ruby really understood until it went down. My problem is really that other than Geneva, its hard to substantiate the connections in a way comparable to someone like Olson. Its because I really have not seen the strength of the connection that I left him out of Tipping Point, otherwise I have no problem naming him as another potentially involved officer.
3. Just for reference its important to note that Hargraves and Vidal were long gone from Interpen – as was Interpen as a consolidated group for that matter – by 1963. They were working their own missions while Hemming and Sturgis had proved to be talkers but operationally ineffective. Even Remegio Arce had reportedly gone on to go for work for WAVE on Commando Mambieses missions. But more to the point, while Marita may have been debriefed in regard to Castro and his associates (and habits) – most likely debriefed indirectly as was Oswald after returning from Russia – she had nothing new to offer by 1963 and even Hemming laughed at the idea of anybody inviting her into anything serious. He took her to an Interpen press event early on, just for show, but that was for the media. More importantly at the time of the assassination, she was involved in a very high profile paternity law suit against a Latin American dictator (former, in exile). She had been persuaded to go from New York to Miami as a high profile escort, naively at first but less so as time passed, and was being chased around town by photographers (she took great photos, I have a Miami paper with her on page one) who wanted details on the legal action, the dictator, her romantic liaisons, etc. All in all not someone likely to be scooped up for a caravan to Dallas to kill the President……
Thank you, Larry, for the detailed insight. I know that you probably get asked why certain names are left out of your published JFK works and I didn’t want to be yet another inquisitor with a list off names to question you on. lol. I was curious on those that I mentioned above so your input is very much appreciated. Again, just phenomenal work by you!
Happy to do it Addison, although I do get asked that I don’t mind at all addressing it here….I did a separate post as to why Richard Case Nagell was not in Tipping Point even though I discuss him at length in SWHT.
The answer is that I wanted to focus Tipping Point strictly on the attack in Dallas, even with that goal I did end up putting a lot of relevant copy – such as on Chicago, or the Odio incident, or DRE member activities in 1963 into the end notes of Tipping Point.
Even then what I thought of at first as a 40 page White Paper turned into a book of 300 pages – and now David and I find our Red Bird leads research paper at over 20 pages….clearly being brief is not my super power.
So feel free to ask if you don’t see someone or something you expected, I’m happy to explain with some data or if nothing else give an opinion as an explanation.
Thanks, Larry, I appreciate that. I look forward to reading about the Red Bird Leads that you and David are working on. Actually, I wouldn’t mind at all if it turned into a book. Lol
I’ve waited commenting on the podcast because its so chock full of new information that one has to listen a number of times to absorb it all.
While there have been been many good comments on the details revealed, I’d like to discuss the “big picture” that’s sketched out in “Tipping Point”.
During my own military service, I did much work with our Division Intelligence section, or “Two Shop”, as it was known. One of the things I learned was that it is extremally rare to get a complete picture of what the other side’s intentions are. The picture will usually be an incomplete one, comparable to a jigsaw puzzle with most of its pieces missing. Its the job of any Intel Officer to fill in those blank spaces based on their knowledge of the enemy and their likely actions.
What I’ve read in “Tipping Point” conforms to this model. In many ways it reads like an intel estimate. The evidence presented is indeed backed up by hard evidence, and any speculation is supported by credible sources and historic precedent. Further, its a truism that the overwhelming majority of intelligence is gleaned from published information, and again, this study follows this principle. Its major strength comes from the fact that all of its findings come from information that is now in the public domain, and therefore not easily refuted.
The conclusions show that the plot to murder our 35th President did indeed come out of the Intelligence community, but was not, as those like Oliver Stone would say, a coup by the “Military Industrial Complex” . If anything it can be compared more to Iran Contra, where rogue elements of the National Security State took it upon themselves to conduct illegal and unaccountable operations in the name of “National Security”. And once made aware, the Establishment did everything in its power to cover up and hide the hard truth so as to protect its reputation and credibility.
If they cover this at all, the Corporate Media ( A more accurate description.), will likely do everything they can to dispute the facts and obfuscate the conclusions with statements like: “This can be interpreted in many ways” and such.
And then of course they will bring out some retired CIA talking head who will use their name and reputation to refute everything. Very much like the final scene in the movie “Planet of the Apes”, where Taylor ( Charlton Heston.). and “Defender of the Faith” Dr. Zeius ( Maurice Evans.), argue about human artifacts found in an archeological dig.
” I can give alternative descriptions of everything you’ve found” says Dr. Zeius.
Yet, in the end, we see the good Doctor always knew the truth.
And its the same kind of mentality that we are dealing with today.
John, I think your comparison to Iran-Contra is very close, in that respect I was surprised in researching and writing on the second (Oliver North version) of that where CIA field officers disobeyed Congress and even CIA HQ to support activities even when they were very much aware (as was North) of the drug element which emerged in the Contra support and supply chain. They considered the anti-Communist mission more important than the law, their oaths or any consideration of collateral damage.
In a big picture sense they were acting on motives and personal convictions took them over the line into serious legal and ethical violations – but they didn’t care and for that matter those convicted were later pardoned. Clearly this is a mind set that repeats itself over and over again.
On your comment about intelligence, I would say that my exposure to threat and warnings intelligence, first in Surprise Attack and then in Unidentified is definitely affecting the way I approach problems where facts are never going to be fully definitive. Its certainly driving the UAP/UFO projects I’m working on now – as well as the new Red Bird lead research.
Something else to mention about Iran Contra and its comparison to the JFK murder.
The Warren Commission and the Iran Contra Committee had their differences, mainly in the way their proceedings were conducted, with one being done in private, and the other in public. However, in both cases, the inquiries nevertheless had many things in common.
The most important similarity is that the investigative bodies deliberately limited the scope of their inquiries, and ignored key evidence. They willingly cooperated with the national security establishment, and actively blocked any statements or evidence which contradicted pre arranged conclusions. Most importantly, the leaders of the investigations
both privately and publicly stated their intentions to preserve the status quo.
Indeed, Representative Lee Hamilton, the Iran Contra Committee co-chair himself publicly declared that the committee did not want to cause a Constitutional crisis, and above all needed to preserve the power of the Presidency.
Never mind protecting and preserving the Constitution.
This is the same Lee Hamilton who later co-chaired the 911 Committee, and who currently directs the Woodrow Wilson Center.
Personal note: 42 years ago, both myself and Oliver North were serving in the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune. He was Operations Officer for 3rd Bn., 8th Marine Regiment,
and from there to the Naval War College and his subsequent assignment to the NSC.
Another unfortunate corollary is the inability for the legitimate internal systems controls to deal with both rogue actions and even true failures in performance. The services and agencies all have IG’s and internal investigative bodies that are able to deal with such things. But when the incidents get “political”, self interest overrides their function.
We have it on good authority that actual inquiries were made at JMWAVE about the involvement of anti-Castro Cuban exiles. That investigation produced a report which was apparently suppressed – and there may well have been an internal effort to move for prosecutions, if so it too was suppressed. Both are based on anecdotal remarks but we do know that Shackley overtly liked about the WAVE investigation even having been conducted.
In Surprise Attack I wrote about the actionable incompetence and failures among several agencies as well as within NORAD. Both IG’s and the 911 Commission recommended corrective action in several instance (including sheer incompetence and even dereliction of duty). However Agency heads and political intervention (read Condi Rice) overrode all the recommendations. The system itself can’t defend itself from such political self interest….sadly.
No coincidence then, that Condi Rice is the President of the Hoover Institute at Stanford University. “Leland Stanford’s Farm” as we say in the Golden State.
Right across the bay from me, and both of us ’55 models too.
Isn’t life ironic?
Larry, I hope this question isn’t too random, but do you have any thoughts on what key events brought together the team(s) that ended up in Dealey Plaza? We have the Wheaton Names/Pathfinders – highly trained and capable mechanics like Felix Rodriguez, Nestor Izquierdo, Carlos Hernandez Sanchez, Antonio Soto, John Koch Gene… these men work directly under Rip Robertson, and are paid for in part by Johnny Roselli. These men easily tie to David Morales, who has close connections to Manny Chavez (I’m assuming this is the Redbird pilot). Roselli is the direct connect to Jack Ruby who connects to a handful of corrupt Dallas PD who may have handled security. Where exactly does Felipe Vidal Santiago, Roy Hargraves, and Remigio Arce come in? I’m assuming this all tracks back to Harvey who kept close ties to Angleton… and it seems all but the Ruby people tie back to JMWAVE, but I can’t seem to find the key event that puts everyone together in the summer of ’63 where it became clear that this precise group of people had the ability, dedication and opportunity to attempt the unthinkable. You’ve made it clear that a few shooters/spotters/radio men could have been supported by less informed infiltration/exfiltration/security people but they would all have to be trusted/compromised. Is it Harvey asking Roselli and Morales for their best, most trusted operators that were active that summer or was it a case of a team being assembled of many possible candidates? I’m asking for your best guess, there’s obviously so many missing puzzle pieces.
It’s tough for me to respond to your post because basically all those elements are specifically addressed in Tipping Point – including the chronology of how and when the Dallas attack came together and who played what role in it.
Hopefully you have read Tipping Point but if not you should start there. If you have I need some more specific questions based on areas of the book since it really does address all the points you have listed (well at least that was my goal).
I read the Tipping Point within an hour or so of you posting it… so I guess I need to revisit it. It’s entirely possible that I sped through it looking for the newest material that I haven’t heard from you and missed some of the nuance. I’ll give it a thorough re-reading and respond with some more specific questions if I can. Thanks for the quick reply.
Brandon, actually the whole thing was posted in several parts over at least a couple of months…by any chance did not not get back to all of it? It is probably harder to handle dealing with it that way rather than in the book form.
As to the key events, for me it was undoubtedly the news of the upcoming secret dialogs between JFK and Castro, with a very likely negotiated settlement leaving Castro in power that was the key to triggering the conspiracy – and to moving the combination of Miami Station personnel and exile surrogates to action.
As to exactly how that happen, I tried to deal with that in the chronology of people’s movements that is in one of the segments.
Perhaps I can do better with specific questions.